21 comments on “The Hohokam: Northern Toltecs-part 2

  1. Man…This is excellent. This makes me wonder about the Pueblo structures down inside the Grand Canyon too. More of the same original culture I would think?

    Thanks everybody!

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    • Very possible. I think these northern Toltec had a very extended territory in the SW USA more than we know possibly. And then there is that little pesky problem of the Aztecs with the theory that their original homeland (Azatlan) was in what we call the Great Salt Lake in Utah today! I’m pretty sure the Hopi are closely related to the Maya too. And, the more I discover about the northern Toltec (Hohokam) the more I’m wondering if Chaco was not their creation. And the “fall” of Chaco would have been the Toltec culture in decline and an exit back into Mexico. 🙂

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      • I really think you are on to something here Roberto. Just look at the pueblos in Nevada north of lake mead in Overton. And from what my NPS friend claims, there is evidence of a continued pueblo culture all the way into California towards Barstow and the great basin from there. 🙂

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          • OK here’s one for you… 🙂 I just spent almost an hour personally talking with Chris B. Donnan from UCLA Dept of Anthropology (Retired) and his very nice Wife who is very sharp about Anthropology herself.

            Apparently he was out here in 62 when I was 1yr old doing digs around the area and found some interesting stuff too. I presented your theory to them with deserved credit to you folks and they got excited and he is seriously very interested to find out more.

            So I got his card and Email address so that I can make a connection. I need to know if it would be cool to invite him over here in the near future after we get a connection going?

            They both seem to be very objective and fun to talk to. We had a great time laughing about how tribal territory boundaries changed quite a bit because as you know, they were always looking for new breeding stock. Mrs. Donnan popped up and said “and not just horses!”. Fun couple! lol

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              • Absolutely, I will make contact and then try to get you two in touch. I have more questions to answer for him, he asked about local things here and we didn’t have time to finish. He wants my help to find one of the digs from the past. I think I know exactly where it is by the landmarks he described. 🙂

                For me it was kind of like meeting the Elvis of Moche . lol I have read his stuff before and recognized his name when he introduced himself. From what I understand he is supposed to be one of the foremost authorities on the Moche?

                This could be interesting if he has an open mind. 🙂

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                  • He pulled up to my business, I thought it was just another tourist wanting road directions. He got out and asked if I had lived here very long and knew the area. “I was out here 55 yrs ago on an archaeological dig and want to find it again”.

                    And it went from there! 🙂

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      • The privilege is all mine Barb. Please let me thank you guys Barb. Thank you for the time and work to put this all together and come share it with us! It makes my little hobby of chasing these historical cultures down just that much more interesting!

        I am always learning new things here, and this theory you all have is very intriguing!

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  2. BTW JR on your property have you dug around your hill to see if anything is under it? Frankly, I think some of the “hills” might be pyramids. Just speculation but we will see 🙂

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    • This is the plan this summer, We plan to go spend a couple weeks up there and do a serious study of the property and what the geology is like. I need to make sure there are no important artifact or fossil beds. Unlike most, this is important to me before I start moving any dirt around. And unlike others I plan to move as little as needed and you won’t even see my “humble” abode when I am done. I plan to live “with it” not against it. 🙂

      It may turn out I might not want to move any dirt at all depending on whether I find anything or not. But here’s something cool, Where the lower leveler saddle is, it is indeed sitting on limestone. When we were there last my walking staff thumped on what sounded like a “Hollow” spot underground about 15 ft in diameter, a ceiling maybe?… 🙂

      Now I just need to go do some serious searching for any possible entrances along the cliffs along the three back walls that drop off more than 100 ft. Now wouldn’t that be something? 🙂 But I do know that on the back side I can see the layers all the way up to my little peak. And the peak is red sandstone layers. This is the same red layer I found the fossilized Dinosaur tracks fern prints, but on a hill across the canyon at the same elevation.

      But you know what! I absolutely believe what you suggest might be possible anywhere in that area Roberto! You can bet I am going to be all over that area with open eyes just as soon as I can! lol

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        • Oh absolutely, If I find anything I will get it on here ASAP. So that we can catch any “out of place” artifacts for this particular area. 🙂

          My NPS friend recently found a Fremont point deep into Chemehuevi territory. These are the finds that create curiosity! lol

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  3. You might find this interesting… I went and poked around a bit by satellite, It looks like there was once a water course that would have been quite substantial and ran along the wash north of the ruins.

    I tracked this back and it looks like this site may have ended because the water course changed to a new course several miles northwest completely bypassing even the mesa area to the west.

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    • You could possibly be right JR. Can you post a map/pic of what you were looking at? Water is very important and without it civilizations move on or die. No water equals no crops

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      • Yes I can Sir! I have to go to town and get my better half tomorrow but I did take a picture and want to add a few pointers on it for you to show how it changed. It looks like a fault line may have opened up to divert it.

        But it looks like it once actually ran out on to that mesa on the west before flowing north and then east along side the pueblo site. It also looks like it may have made a few ponds on that mesa it’s self!

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  4. “Word is that there is a “Aztec pyramid” in the forest not far from Flagstaff but no one seems to know exactly where it is. So I wonder if that red slab is it? Did we stumble upon this pyramid? It that what was buried under the hill? And if so I’m pretty sure it’s not Aztec but TOLTEC!”

    I noticed in Part 3 you posted some old photos of Teotihuacan and two of them show the pyramids still buried under dirt and trees which make it look like a hill. Is this similar to the hill you saw with the red stone slab at the base? I would love to go dig around at the place you found this.

    teotihuacan pyramid old pic

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    • Yes, and very much so and it also had a flattened top from what I remember. I know what area we were hunting in at the time but do not know the specific location. We were on a dirt road and the red stone was about 20 feet from the road. Also, thinking about it the red stone which was smooth may have come from the Sedona area not to far away.

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