Relief carving from Angkor Wat Temple, Cambodia 1186 A.D.
There’s a new article up on the “Ancient Origins” website by April Holloway that is highly interesting. It concerns the dating of a Triceratops horn using C-14 dating and it is dated not at billions or millions of years ago but at only 33,500 years ago! That’s nothing short of astounding! So let’s take a closer look.
Link to Ancient Origins article:
Before I begin let me state a few things. I’ve always found it incredible (to say the least) when scientists date fossils at fantastic ages in the millions or more years. There has always been a question in my mind as to the accuracy of such dates. And then we have things like the footprints of dinosaurs and ancient humans found by Leakey in the Olduvai Gorge walking beside each other which is even more incredible. That find tells me that humans and dinosaurs DID coexist at some point but such evidence is summarily passed off by most paleontologists or simply not discussed. That’s ridiculous and that is NOT science! As I’ve said before, true science follows the evidence wherever it leads and if it obliterates someone’s bet theory then so be it. We must ask ourselves if our real interest is in science and evidence OR is our real interest in maintaining some ridiculously fantastic theory, funding, and teaching tenure? Sadly, I fear the later is the answer.
I don’t necessarily agree with the Creationists, but I don’t fully agree with the mainstream paleontologists either. Frankly, I feel both camps have some things a bit right and other things a bit wrong. I have found in my life that truth usually is not found at the extremes of a spectrum but that it is typically found in the middle. I really don’t care if new discoveries wreck someones theory or cost them their funding because we are suppose to be scientists and scientists are suppose to pursue truth no matter where that truth may lead. As scientists we must follow the chain of verifiable evidence! That should be the first rule of science.
The Ancient Origins article refers to two Triceratop brow horns that were excavated in May 2012 by Paleontologist Otis Kline, Jr and Microscope Scientist Mark Armitage along with Kevin Anderson a microbiologist and paleontologist. The two horns are identified as GDFM 12.001a and GDFM 12.001b. They were discovered in Dawson County, Montana and they were dated at 33,500 years old which flies in the face of conventional dating that maintains the dinosaurs died out around 65 million years ago. If the 33,500 date is correct then it means humans and dinosaurs coexisted on planet Earth at that time.
The horns were given to the Glendive Dinosaur and Fossil Museum in Montana who sent them to the University of Georgia’s Center for Applied Isotope Studies who used Carbon-14 dating and they dated the first horn, GDFM 12.001a, at 33,500 years old plus or minus 120 years. They dated the second horn, GDFM 12.001b, at 41,010 years plus or minus 220 years.
Triceratops means “three horned face” and this species of dinosaur was a herbivorous ceratopsid dinosaur that first appeared in the late Maastrichtian stage of the Late Cretaceous Period which was around 68 million years ago according to mainstream paleontological wisdom. It was a species that was found in North America and is believed to have become extinct somewhere around 66 million years ago in the Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction event believed to have taken place about 66 mya.
That’s what mainstream paleontologists believe but there is an opposing side composed of other scientists who disagree with mainstream scientists. One such group calls itself the”Paleochronology Group.” They conduct research pertaining to “anomalies” found in science and they maintain that dinosaurs DID NOT die out millions of years ago and that there is substantial evidence in the fossil record to prove it! In fact, they maintain that dinosaurs were still around as late as 23,000 years ago.
Let me now turn to Carbon-14 dating. Up until recently the way scientists have dated fossils using Carbon-14 dating is by NOT by using it to date the actual fossils but by using Carbon-14 dating on rocks and sediments above and below where the fossil was found. Scientists never considered it of any merit to date the actual fossils themselves using Carbon-14 dating because it is ONLY RELIABLE UP TO 55,000 YEARS. Using Carbon-14 dating to date anything beyond 55,000 years old is risky at best. The reason mainstream scientists believe that the dinosaurs died out around 66 million years ago is that they have based that estimate on radiometric dating of the volcanic layers found above and below fossil finds. However, some scientists such as the Paleochronology Groups assert that this method is flawed and that it is a method by which “serious problems and gross assumptions must be made.” So up until recently scientists neglected using Carbon-14 dating on the actual fossils of dinosaur bones to derive their C-14 content and not only were they neglecting to do so but they were actually refusing to do so!
As the Ancient Origins article reports the C-14 analysis of the two Triceratops horns is not unique as numerous C-14 tests have been conducted on several dinosaur fossil bones and those too have generated dates not in the millions of years but in the thousands of years. Models generated by the Paleochronology Group predicted that dinosaur fossil bones would contain significant amounts of C-14 and, in fact, they did and the dates generated ranged from between 22,000 and 39,000 years BP. Further, the group used C-14 dating in order to help solve a mystery that has puzzled scientists lately. That mystery concerns the finding of dinosaur soft tissue and depictions of dinosaurs by ancient humans worldwide in their art. Such depictions have been found in Cambodia, Peru, Mexico, Africa, Asia, Europe, and just about everywhere else. The question, of course, is how did these ancient people know about dinosaurs? They weren’t out there digging up fossils like we are. Yet, they draw accurate depictions of these creatures on their temples, earthware, in cave art and petroglyphs. So since they weren’t excavating dinosaur fossils how did they even know that dinosaurs once existed? About the only reasonable and logical conclusion is that they saw them! They depicted what they saw with their own eyes and what they saw were what we call dinosaurs today!
The Ancient Origins article has a table of dinosaur fossils analyzed by the Paleochronology Group in their report and some of the ages of certain dinosaurs are fairly interesting. For instance, a fossil from the dinosaur known as Allosaurus was dated at 31,360 years old +/- 100 years. Another fossil from a Apatosaurus was dated at 38,250 years old +/- 160 years. All of these dates were arrived at by the Paleochronology Group using C-14 dating of the actual dinosaur bones. But this group is not the only one that has challenged mainstream Paleontology as numerous independent researchers have argued for a long while that there IS EVIDENCE that humans and dinosaurs coexisted at one time on planet Earth. Further, they have also argued that ancient depictions of dinosaurs appeared on artwork and in artifacts that accurately depict dinosaurs and these were created by ancient societies long before modern scientists pieced together dinosaur fossil remains and reconstructed their appearance. There’s only one way the ancients even knew what a dinosaur looked like in my estimation and that is that they SAW them. They knew what dinosaurs looked like because they encountered LIVING dinosaurs themselves!
Turning to dinosaur soft tissue finds, back in March of 2005 Paleontologist Mary Schweitzer and her team found soft tissue inside a 68 million year old Tyrannosaurus Rex fossil leg bone that was found in Montana at the Hell Creek Formation site. What was odd, to say the least, is most scientists believed such a find impossible as they believed soft tissue proteins degraded in less than 1 million years and that was under the best conditions! Schweitzer and her research team rehydrated the soft tissue and testing revealed evidence of intact structures such as connective tissue, blood vessels, and bone matrix. That, my compadres, is nothing short of ASTOUNDING!!
But Schweitzer and her team are not the only ones to have found soft tissue in dinosaur fossil remains. The Triceratops horns found by Armitage and Anderson (noted above) also contained soft tissue and after analysis they announced that it was scientifically IMPOSSIBLE for such cell preservation IF dinosaurs went extinct 66 million years ago. And they are absolutely right as soft tissue degrades in less than 1 million years as is believed by mainstream science. Armitage is a creationists and he opened the discovery up for discussion with his students and colleagues in order to discuss the implications of these finds and to discuss the now apparent fact that dinosaurs did NOT go extinct 66 million years ago but were alive and well as recent as 23,000 years ago. That move got him promptly FIRED from his professorship at the University of California!! Armitage refused to play the mainstream game any longer and instead was more interested in following the evidence wherever it led rather than supporting some obviously erroneous theory and assumption. So UC fired him because he refused to play the game any longer and, besides, how dare he conduct REAL SCIENCE!! Shame on him!
Critics of the Paleochronology Groups point out that there are creationists in the group and this could bias their conclusions. Well the same could be said for mainstream paleontology as well. Within mainstream paleontology there are people who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo no matter how WRONG that status quo is as they fear loss of funding and their academic professorships! To HELL with the truth and evidence and the truth be damned!! At least that seems to be the way it goes although I know several in the mainstream who really question some erroneous information put out by mainstream paleontology but they keep their mouths SHUT. They rear challenging the mainstream as it will result in job loss, unemployment, and lack of retirement and prestige. Those in the mainstream who have challenged them have been promptly booted OUT with no hope of ever working in mainstream science again. Loss of income, loss of retirement, loss of position, loss of prestige? Oh yes, the mainstream likes to play hard-ball and when you cross them they make sure you know it AND NEVER FORGET IT. And this is “science”???? Sorry but I THINK NOT! This is ACADEMIC POLITICS and nothing short of it!! Have you guessed that I’m not in the mainstream yet? Wow! You just may be a tad brighter than the average bear LOL.
The Paleochronology Groups urges any and all scientists to replicate their results by carrying out rigorous C-14 testing on ANY dinosaur fossil. However, their challenge has been met thus far, for the most part, with REJECTION. Surprised? You shouldn’t be. Finding that the dinosaurs were still very much alive 23,000 years ago would cause a MAJOR breakdown in mainstream paleontology. Everything would have to be re-evaluated and redated and rewritten INCLUDING HUMAN EVOLUTION! Why not apply the same C-14 dating to ANCIENT HUMAN FOSSIL REMAINS???? Hell the mainstream won’t even accept money to use C-14 testing on dino bones! What are they so afraid of? Surely they are interested in true science and following the evidence WHEREVER it leads, no? Hmmmm…maybe not………
I have found in my own experience that contrary to what some in academia seem to believe MOST people are NOT ignorant! They may not have the nice little letters behind their names or a plush office in some well known university but they are not ignorant. At least not as ignorant as some in academia seem to think the masses of humanity are. At some point mainstream scientists are going to have to admit to the evidence and admit that their dating is fundamentally flawed and begin to follow the evidence WHEREVER it leads and no matter whose pet theory it blows out of the ocean! A lot of people simply do not believe anything paleontology claims because paleontologists keep changing the dates, species, relationships, etc. It’s like clowns in a circus and they are the clowns! Many people cannot even fathom something being 1000 years old much less 3 million years old. This is especially so when it comes to human evolution. One day we are related to Neanderthals and the next we’re not. One day it’s this and the next day it’s that. Most people scratch their heads and wonder which is it. It is often claimed that some people don’t believe in human evolution due to their religious beliefs but that is NOT the sole reason. Another reason is that people find the dates ascribed to ancient humans beyond logical and imagination! The same goes for the dinosaurs! IF we want people to take paleontology seriously then we MUST stop playing the clown role and START playing the role of REAL scientists which means following the evidence wherever it might lead and no matter whose pet theory, funding, or tenure it might upset! To continue this charade we are calling “science” today is ridiculous.
I love the last comment quoted in the Ancient Origins article by Miller the founder of the Paleochronology Group. He says, “The publish should be made aware that the discovery of soft tissue, C-14 in dinosaur bones and dinosaur depictions world-wide renders current beliefs about how old they are OBSOLETE (emphasis mine). Science is about sharing evidence, and letting the chips fall where they may.”
I couldn’t agree more!!
** NOTE: Although some are fossils most dinosaur bones are not fossilized at all. One would think that if dinosaurs walked the earth and disappeared long before the arrival of humans that the dinosaur bones would be fossils. But they aren’t.
FYI—Carbon-14 dating is highly accurate as it has been used to date known historical objects and has turned up accurate dates almost all the time.
It’s pretty simple, really. We all know that climate change is caused by human activity. That is settled science. We also know that climate change is what killed the dinosaurs. So, if humans and dinosaurs did not walk the Earth together, how could climate change have killed the dinosaurs? This seems like irrefutable logic to me.
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There is still much debate and speculation over just what resulted in the extinction of the dinosaurs. Even now researchers are still debating over the asteroid theory. Of course it that theory turns out to be fact then such a blow to the earth would indeed result in massive climate change on a scale we cannot even imagine. So not all climate change is due to human activity. However, modern humans and their pollution and poisons certainly DO contribute to climate change to some degree. The dinosaurs were large reptiles that required massive amounts of food. Climate change certainly explains there dying out in terms of lack of food. Not all climate change is due to human activity and that must be kept in mind as some is due to natural causes. In my mind climate change is not an “either….or” but “both.” As far as dinosaurs and humans walking the earth together we find fossil remains of human and dinosaur tracks walking the same path and perhaps even side by side and both dated the same. That pretty much PROVES that humans and dinosaurs DID walk the earth together. One thing to also keep in mind is that ancient human populations were nowhere near the 7 billion people we have today. In fact, ancient humans were few in numbers for a long, long time.
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Current climate change is caused by modern human activity since the industrial revolution and the burning of coal and fossil fuels. Climate change is not limitednot humans themselves to human climate change. Three have been instances where solar activity amongst other things have changed the climate. One great example is the algae in the oceans around the beginning of life took in carbon dioxide and released oxygen the same as plants do now, but with the complete lack of animals who in turn made carbon dioxide from oxygen there became a lot of oxygen in the atmosphere; it’s basically where out highly oxygenated atmosphere comes from.
In short, climate change isn’t limited to humans, and when current scientists talk about current climate change they are attributing it to human technology and our overuse of it, not humans themselves.
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